Silver Shield Report #36- Permaculture in the Next Paradigm

Today we are discussing Permaculture in the Next Paradigm with one of our experts in the Silver Shield Report community.  The first thing I love is how people are following their passions and finding that it is not only mentally and emotionally rewarding, but in the next paradigm, it will be extremely rewarding.  Permaculture will be a growth industry that is necessary for survival, balanced with nature, and will be very profitable in the near future.  This discussion will play a huge part in our new community as we seek to make the best use of our land, while maintaining balance and good stewardship of the land.

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41 comments to Silver Shield Report #36- Permaculture in the Next Paradigm

  • DANNY JANIS

    ***Best Report Yet*** “I CAN DIG IT”

  • Michael Wilson

    Chris, when you have an “expert” on, let THEM speak. You have your expertise but it is most certainly not permaculture. I feel somewhat slighted because your guest has obviously got great information and you spent so much time talking about what you know or what you missed as a kid or what you would like. Please dude, love your work, but try not to dominate every conversation you have on these reports.

  • patriotdeb

    Agree with Michael.

  • Joshua Stewart

    Great SS that just sparked me to start a permaculture garden in my backyard. I could have gone for another hour learning about that stuff! Oliver and Kelly rocked it!

  • speedspirit

    Awesome report Chris. This lady will be so helpful to planning and growing the community. But they way you talk about how things can be it makes me think that we can build the community in our choice of a few states besides Utah. The real estate prices are real expensive there. If after TSHTF senario if we can purchase green house plastic, solar equipment, fencing, pipes, shovels, mini skid steers, lumber ect then we are pretty fortunate and should be able to start a community where she recommends due to its best soil type, best southern exposure, mild winters, water supply, southern slopes and access to public railroads that might bring us our supplies. Places people do not really value now will most likely have the least demand after due to low populations and available reconstuction efforts and material. Places like West Virginia. Other places like Utah might be full of I told you so’s trying to hold onto what once was and not exactly changing thier consciousness entirely. There are alot of rich folks out there that pulled their money out of the markets and holding Gold.
    Your thoughts on this appreciated.

    • Silver Shield

      I am really liking Northern Georgia, Western South and North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee.

      Who knows we could do multiples…

      • Marvin Motsenbocker

        Yes- I like the idea of multiple, especially if this allows more members to participate.
        You mentioned: “Northern Georgia, Western South and North Carolina and Eastern Tennessee.
        Who knows we could do multiples”

        There is one caveat regarding the Southeast: rainfall is dropping permanently (the last few droughts hit Georgia and the Carolinas bad, while Virginia was just out of it). This is all predicted and coming to pass from the increase in CO2 (basically the “heat engine” of the world gets more energy at the equator and the increased evaporation there drives a greater force northward, such that northern areas get more rain while southern areas get skipped by the moisture). Witness New Mexico through Colorado permanently drying while Virginia and northward have more rain than usual and overall, but especially the north gets warmer and wetter. For this reason I suggest that Georgia and the Carolinas might be difficult but hilly, beautiful, West Virginia makes sense. And, the northern plains are both getting blessedly warmer (already 1-2 week extended growing season due to warming) and wetter. Montana etc might be interesting.
        I already understand from comments that many people cant or dont want to make it to Utah etc area inland.
        This is an excellent topic. I for one would be happy to work on a community in W Virginia and already am discussing with someone who owns an isolated 180 acre mountaintop there. And, like the mormons, we can always move out west later. One location might be better to survive 2012-2016 while a permanent location might be out west. I really dont want to spend 2012-2016 in Northern Virginia. We have at least 15 varieties of police officers from local/state/national/militaries/FBI/secret service etc strutting about here waiting for a reason to “save” us with their “help”. I want to get out of here….

        • Tybeir

          Marvin I live on the Coast of NC and my rain barrels are full. To the west of me its a different story they are not doing so well. We get afternoon rain like clock work in the summer on they coast so that helps. When you say “rainfall is dropping permanently” forever? I would think after the dollar collapses we would be putting less co2 in the air and over time the earth would adjust back to a normal cycle. I hope that we will learn the error of our ways and embrace ideas like permaculture in the new paradigm.We cannot keep walking our current path or we will end up killing ourselves and like George Carlin says “the earth will just shrug us off and keep on going”. Just my opinion

          Oh and Marvin RUNNNNN! Get as far away from big brother as possible I agree I want
          nothing to do with there “HELP”

          Always nice talking to you we need to swap emails although I only check mine a few times a week never seems to be enough time thats why I want to farm I HOPE that will offer a slower pace.

          • Marvin Motsenbocker

            Thanks Tybeir…. My horizon is about 1.5 lifetimes. When I say permanent, I really mean a few hundred years. I cant imagine CO2 leveling off for at least 50-100 years and probably a couple thousand years to move down significantly. I hope we meet as a group and make a list of what we are looking for. Regarding Running: If I can catch a plane to Japan I am home free literally but I want to develop solar electric generation and farm tools for community development generally and to participate in a community here as well as on my small island in Japan. I later will post some pictures of a couple useful solar electric projects intended to make life easier on the farm/garden …..

            • Tybeir

              Cant wait to see what you have been tinkering with. As far as flying off to japan try to hold out a bit longer I think the group has more to learn from you 😀 .

          • Marvin Motsenbocker

            Tybeir
            How serious are you about farming? Would you be interested in being the Ag manager/farmer in a group in WV or Penn? I have in mind that the Ag Man would work as a farmer Ag specialist but would also manage work contributions by other members who contract for certain crops and help harvest: he would prepare a list of possible things to grow to the group. In early Spring each member would select and commit both time (assist the ag man in the garden according to his schedule) and money: provide seed/startup money in Spring, make a payment to help with salary in Summer and pay money again based on harvest size for food produced at harvest in Autumn after everyone gets in the harvest. Or something like that, (can you suggest something more practical?) Please contact me at mmotsenbocker@yahoo.com if you or if you know someone who could be the Ag Man for a community. The Ag Guy is most important and one possible situation would be for the group to provide a home and community for someone who does not have a job now but would like to do this, and maybe act as caretaker year round as well…..

  • speedspirit

    Did you guys see this link I posted at the end of report #35 yesterday its an excellent buy for a 1928 Hand cut stone school 10 room building with gym ect for $59,000.

    http://www.unitedcountry.com/HistoricProperty/WestVirginia/Tanner%20West%20Virginia-47006-18870.htm

    • Marvin Motsenbocker

      That stone school looks very promising. How much land does it have? Is there water? That would make a nice temporary bug out location and summer retreat that could be shared and used as a summer retreat club. I am interested. If you want to visit it please call me.

      • Tybeir

        Looks like it is a large plot of land from the pictures that is a low price for such a large stone building I am interested but have no money sadly. On a side note the electrical looks good from what I can see looks like it still has a line in from the power co. Very interesting

      • speedspirit

        Google map link looks like the school is that building right under the words (co rt 7)in the square like shape which is probally the walking track mentioned. Tanner creek looks to be about 700 ft from the school. I think a place like this for a meeting point after TSHTF. Its got a few positives going for it like price, large stone stucture, castle like roof thats provides excellent defensive positions, rural area away from coast, avg rainfall 45″ avg snow 76″, avg. temp 61 degrees,

        https://maps.google.com/maps?q=tanner+west+virginia+google+map&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x88499dbde03c9381:0xc6ff1651e9cdd02a,Tanner,+De+Kalb-Troy,+WV&gl=us&ei=Ri3XT8aKA-rZ0QHapLmnAw&oi=geocode_result&ved=0CCsQ8gEwAA

        • Marvin Motsenbocker

          Lets visit. I can go on July 4 or possibly last weekend in June. Otherwise, July 14 weekend. I will ask questions of the realtor today. why not. “talk is cheap until you hire a lawyer”

          • Silver Shield

            The central location to the East Coast is great. (4 hours from me, 8 from NYC, 5 from Baltimore, 9 from Atlanta.)

            West Virginia has a resilient community.
            It certainly has a lot of woods and rivers.
            The structure is cool.
            How many acres?
            Is there a hotel near by to stay during a visit?

            Let’s think about this.

            If we wanted to pay cash I am sure raising a few hundred a piece in the group is easy enough. And a mortgage would be nothing. Also I have never paid retail for anything… :)

            The biggest risk for any property is when it is left unattended.
            Looks like a lot of neighbors flank the property.

            There is no real purpose for the property unless it is safe and the possessions can be kept safe.

            Any members interested in moving?

            I can think of a lot of cool uses like a defensible rally point or even a off the radar bullion storage. The field in the back looks like a perfect place for some food production, especially right next to the river.

            Also if we are going to be looking at this, are there other properties with better attributes?

            Note: Tanner is an unincorporated community in Gilmer County, West Virginia, United States

            • Tybeir

              I am a little worried about where they say they stones have good salvage value. Curious to find out about the roof and foundation also if the copper wire is still in the walls in NC it gets stripped when buildings are unoccupied for a while. I think with several of our members we could over come the problem of no power from the power company I know Marvin could help with solar. Anyway I am excited about this will see if we can squeeze out enough money to make the trip you guys might need an electrician 😀 will post more when I get back from dinner

              We might want to think about moving this conversation to our forum so it will be saved for others in the group to see after Sunday. forum link http://forum.sonsoflibertyacademy.com/groups/ssr/ Mustafa can let you in if you send him a message I believe

              • mattthenuke

                I was not aware there was a forums. I would like one forums, please 😀 Thanks for the heads up.

            • lizcor68

              Hi Group,

              I sadly don’t get to come on all that often. I was intrigued by the hand cut stone school idea. I am aware of a private college here in Wisconsin (I know it’s cold) that will be going up for sale in the coming year or so. I seem to remember in the video I saw once that brought me to be a member the possibility of buying parks, land, universities. I know it will be closing, it however may be to big. I have aquired properties from the owner in the past. They do not play around, and it may be able to be gotten really inexpensively. I have been in the real estate game for 20 years, this may be a deal here.

          • Marvin Motsenbocker

            The realtor sent me a map. (maybe others have this i dont know). Only 0.4 acres, which seems mostly building. Realtor said there is NO water but building is very habitable. OK for bug out or some kind of control center if we have other lands nearby. I cant get emails of other people. Not sure how to post documents.
            Marvin

            • Marvin Motsenbocker

              West Virginia Property
              I would like to explore all properties in that area.
              I have discovered that often one can get property that is not for sale but could be for sale by just asking around. (no realtor)
              If we visit I would like to explore other buying opportunities in that area (ask other realtors in nearby towns?)
              this is what the realtor said about the habitable stone building with 10 classromms but no kitchen:

              There is no building inspector in the county and no zoning or restrictions. Still pretty much free here.
              There are several places you could stay. Just let me know for sure if you are coming and I will forward you the info you request.
              Look forward to seeing you soon.
              Bryan Groves

              • speedspirit

                Marvin, Thanks for doing some legwork on this bug out building. An interesting site for farm property is landandfarm.com. There are a few near the school like 1 hour away but same county. The prices get larger then the school so dont know how well motivated this group is to start putting up money instead of talk. The school is cheap enough for a great bugout building. I would like to hear from Chris on the subject. I think to have a strong building like that and a farm near by would be an excellent plan. After TSHF we are prepared, let the dust settle then execute Plan B for gaining a bankrupt resort in a other local.

            • GoldSaver

              Water would not be a problem. Depending upon the condition of the roof and the plumbing, a few 275 gallon IBC containers and some pumps would solve the problem.

              Is there a trip planned?

  • Tybeir

    Great report I want to learn more. Farming is hopefully going to support my family in the new paradigm and it sounds like permaculture is a great way to work with nature to feed not only my family but others in our community. I would like to know if Kelly could post some links of her favorite sites if not I can go back and listen for them. I live on the coast of North Carolina and would not mind relocating to the west of the state there are also some very rural areas on the western border of NC/Sc in the mountains and more than a handful of state parks. Kelly and Oliver great job I want to here more in the future

  • Daniel Durham

    Fantastic conversation that was very informative!! Some of the information I’m aware of but a lot of it was educational and inspirational. One thing that I’m getting ready to do is start potting fruit trees from seed and grow them in my yard until they mature enough to plant in the ground in the area in which I currently live. There is a wooded area that I walk my dog in very close to my house with a lot of open field. I plan to start planting the trees I grow from seed in with the natural vegetation. I never see anyone back there so it will be a pirate orchard that only I would know about and since it’s public land I wouldn’t be trespassing onto private property. I think that pirate gardens/orchards combined with home gardens are the perfect grass roots way to combat the food destroying mega-conglomerate corporations like Monsanto, Dupont and Cargil.

    Also, I think that due to lack of fuel and transportation challenges that will occur, developing sister communities in various locations is something to seriously consider. Up rooting from all over the country to gather in one location is not going to be possible for everyone in the SSR community.

    I love the thought provoking interviews here and the positive mindset that everyone here has about rebuilding after the collapse. So many “prepper” sites that I visit are only focused on food storage, guns, ammo… without any thought into rebuilding after the fact.

  • speedspirit

    I could get there July 14 ish. It will be interesting to find out about the buildings present condition, how much land, is the adjacent town property for rent/sale, water source, ect.

    The nearest hotel looks to be about 1 hour away a Super 8 in weston, west virginia.

    • Marvin Motsenbocker

      Re: July 14: I can bring a Eurovan Camper and maybe a tent or two. Someone can sleep in the back and I will sleep on top of the car. Swim in the river. Maybe there is a public pool to wash off at. I dont intend to stay in a hotel unless it is right there.
      BTW: my feeling is that everything we do together is training/experience a successive approximation to honing a good community system. Lol lets make some mistakes and put out ideas to the test in a small scale low risk system and build up from there. How do we handle division of labor and attach value to individual efforts? Chris mentiond inventing a few different types of currencies. If you have something really good please write the outlines down and email to me. I can write a patent application on it for you before you go public with a franchisable idea…………… Marvin

      • Tybeir

        sadly I cannot make it on the 14 its my moms birthday let me know if the day changes. I agree Marvin the more we get together and work together the better. Do you think they would let us stay on the property? If that’s the case I have a few tents and camping gear I can bring if we end up going a different weekend. I wish we could get the input of more than just us 4 on here I would like to know what the others think. Their silence worries me sometimes 😀

        • Marvin Motsenbocker

          Tyber
          Could you go a day early and come back home on the 14th (I can get out on Thursday night and meet you there with others if intenet is available for me to work on Friday a few hours)
          Also, how about July 21st weekend?
          Marvin

  • Freedom Source

    We could gather 250 members from this site (more or less that are interested), put together a Land Trust and purchase that stone school house. 250 people as beneficiary’s of that Land Trust would be $240 each to buy it. Of course the Trust would have to be drawn up and in it items such as property taxes, maintenance, and what each beneficiary would be granted would have to be figured out.

    • Tybeir

      Good idea freedom source.

      @ matthenuke Yep all you have to do is create an acct and send mustafa a message to join the SSR group no one has posted in about 2 weeks but I dont think many people knew about it

  • Jim

    Great report! I agree Kelly and Oliver did a great job. Its great there are like minded people with these skills in the group. I too see the need for all of us to grow our own food and to do it better than its currently being done. The whole mono agriculture system is so wrong. I can see how great this community can be on every level. I would love to here more from Kelly. I went right to the permies web site. Some good info there. I love the info on rocket mass heaters – really cool.

    I’m probably a little late to the conversation, but it is interesting some members are looking at some real estate to purchase. It may make sense to find a place to bug out to or a place for members to meet after shtf. I know Chris has said to wait until after to see where the best place to be is. It may be nice to have good knowledge of an area before shtf. It may be hard to do after. West Virginia seems like a good option. I have driven through before. I too like the western Carolinas. I was stationed in charlston South Carolina with the US Navy. We also vacationed in Asheville NC. Nice Area. I would share Chris’s concerns about protecting property. I think area should have some land to buffer us from neighbors. Water source nearby also, or even a well on property would be nice. My next purchase is a manual well pump for my well if power grid goes down.

    I would be interested in checking out an area with some of the members. it would be nice to meet some of you. I have no problem doing the camping thing. please let me know if interested, my email is jteddick@gmail.com

  • mattthenuke

    Man, I was really looking forward into this foray into the West Virginia wilderness, but google maps is kinda depressing: 10 hours each way. Even if I took a day off of work, I’m almost certain my wife couldn’t make it, and since we’ve only been married for three weeks now, I don’t really wanna do it :)

    I’m more than willing to contribute money, though, if you guys find it suitable.

    • Marvin Motsenbocker

      my email address is mmotsenbocker@yahoo.com we need to discuss this in a live skype setting. my skype address is marvin.andrew anyone interested in a conversation via skype please contact me
      Marvin

  • Oliver Whipple

    For all things permaculture, go to permies.com. It’s the central hub.

  • l1b3r7y1776

    big fan of permaculture. first found out about it at Jack Spirko’s The Survival Podcast. he has a lot of good info on it. agree that I would like to let the guests talk a bit more. they have a lot to say and time goes so quick.

    One thing I did notice was multiple references to Transition Towns. This raised a little red flag as it is tied to Agenda 21. just saw an article referencing this today. http://alt-market.com/articles/874-transition-towns-agenda-21-comes-to-life

  • James Tetreault

    I found this very hard to follow at times as Kelly seemed to branch one comment off to another 50 deep. You can’t expect listeners to keep that straight. I also have some trouble with one of her initial comments that seemed to say man was not put on this planet to have a lawn. Sure. But was he necessarily put on this planet to have her prescribed vegetables right outside their door? Around the 24 minute mark she mentions that some critics of permaculture have derided it as a religion. Well, there is a little bit of that tone to her presentation at times.

  • James Tetreault

    Just read my previous comment and it’s a bit too negative. Sorry.

  • James Tetreault

    Ugh. Sorry to jump in again. The other thing I wanted to mention is that discussion of permaculture should be brutally honest about trade offs. I heard a lot of positive but no mention of any change in comfort or convenience. I suspect a lot of people like their typical toilet more than they will like using a composting toilet. I also think that, much as we may be loathe to admit it, having other people prepare all your food for you, whatever we may think of its quality, inherently saves us some time. Trade offs should be faced.

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