There is all of this hate on gold. The globalists may smack it down and come up with band aid solutions. However, band aid solutions always fail based on history, and they will fail again. Gold will return as its role as money.
Gold and Silver are without a doubt the undefeated heavyweight champions of the world when it comes to being money. Why people let themselves forget that, I’ll never know but whether they understand it or not, gold and silver will revalue themselves and catch up to all this funny money and as mike Maloney says, bring fraudulent money to justice. Keep stacking my friends, and keep up the great work Chris and Rahul.
because gold no longer occupies the imaginations of most people as it might have in the past. the human imagination has evolved to a point that it can no longer indulge in pretending that a shiny metal can properly serve as a symbol of value.
sure, there are those who can construct rationalizations supporting the claim that gold ‘could’ be used as money. but, these claims lack the force necessary to reestablish gold as a sufficiently meaningful symbol to persuade the human imagination to accept gold.
why?
because a symbol must animate the mind. and to animate the mind people need to have a personal relationship with the symbol.
notwithstanding all your erudite historical analysis, you fail to understand that money can only be a symbol. and a symbol only assumes its power in the subjective human mind – not as a component of logical arguments.
there is a very good reason that only ‘paper with ink on it’ (fiat) can serve as money.
it would be a very useful exercise for you, (and virtually all the other regulars visiting dont-tread-on-me) to ponder why it is that ‘paper with ink on it’ will always be the form that money resides in. what is it about this symbol that gives it its power and legitimacy?
could it be that ‘paper with ink on it’ is the form that best communicates what all people, everywhere, hold most dear?
here’s a hint… ‘truth’ may be conveyed by this symbol
‘honest contracts’ may be composed via this symbol
its a symbol familiar to all and affordable to all
Jim, that’s the same crap we’ve heard time and time again. Paper is not money. If you don’t understand why, let me explain it for you. Paper lacks 3 out of the attributes of money. Paper is not rare, it’s not durable and it’s not a store of value over long periods of time. So for you to say that paper is the only thing that can be used for money shows everyone how uneducated and arrogant you are. Show me one paper currency that has survived the ages and I may listen to you. Paper is probably one of the worst things we can trust and use as money. Paper money is pushed on people as money only by those who wish to steal our wealth through printing more and more of it. So until they learn to print gold and silver, they are and will remain the best forms of money available to us whether you like it or not. Boy they brainwashed you good, didn’t they?
Paper is the best form of money for a banker who likes to steal. However I kinda like to hold on to my wealth and prefer a money that bankers can’t print, therefore will hold its value. The 6 attributes of money are: Durable, Portable, Divisible, Fungible, Rare, And a store of value over long periods of time. You can put anything on a list next to these 6 attributes and go down the line and if that item lacks one or more attributes, it is a flaw and therefore is disqualified as money. When using this method you can clearly see that gold and silver are the only 2 things left standing. So gold and silver really are money because everything else is not based on the fact everything else has a flaw or multiple flaws (paper). In the end, people will rush to asset classes that they see holding value and nothing will shine brighter at doing that than you guessed it: Gold and Silver.
gold is only an effective symbol to be used as money for an illiterate society. historically, it ‘represented’ value only because those in control used it to embellish their claim to power by decorating their regal institutions or religious ceremonies with it. crowns were made of gold and holy books were encased by it. it came to ‘represent’, to ‘symbolize’ both truth and power.
but this ‘effect’ cannot and does not persuade a literate people. the human imagination has transcended this connection and now regards gold only as a relic.
if gold were used as money again what in your estimation would prevent its purchasing power from being manipulated? gold would still be ‘on deposit in a vault’ and paper notes (digital bleeps) would still be called upon to circulate in its place. certainly, people would not transact exchanges with gold coins in their pockets! why would we need a symbol (paper) to represent another symbol (gold) to represent another symbol (equitable value) to represent a ‘hope’ that we will be able to count on in the future ( to cash in on something real – like food, water, energy)
‘money’ has no value itself – it can only represents hope, and trust.
all the characteristics that you claim money must have are simply the characteristics that the banks want you to believe in as true and immutable.
why?
because if they can convince you that money ‘has value’ you will then offer it to them for protection. it is you, paul, who is at risk of being brainwashed. the banks would like nothing better than to have people (like you) believe that gold is money. they will easily acquire all the gold and denominate its ‘value’ for their benefit. not yours or mine. there is nothing about ‘gold’ itself that will prevent this from happening. regrettably, you are playing into their game and doing so with remarkable conviction.
money can never be a ‘store of value’ – it’s only a symbol. it cannot store anything, any more than a photograph of a mouth could devour a hamburger.
Ha. Man what a vivid imagination you have. Banks don’t determine the value of gold, the free markets do that. That is the free markets job. And you’re wrong to say that money has to be valueless. You’re putting yourself in that group of people that call gold “barbarous” and a “relic”. But those are the same people drinking that “barbarous” water and still sweeping their floors with that “barbarous” broom. Some things in life don’t need improvement if they’re just fine the way they are. The attitude that you present is showing that you think you are better than gold. Humans always get arrogant and think that they can cheat gold. Gold isn’t greedy, gold won’t lie, cheat and steal. Humans will. So for people to use a money that is determined by a human is financial suicide. Either you are being paid to spread this propaganda or you really are that stupid. Either way, you’re not convincing anyone here that you’re right. This is a website for freedom loving patriots who want to teach the truth and value liberty. Not promote the same type of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. Our economy in shambles proves that your way of thinking is the problem. Paper money is debt, the solution is the opposite. Money. Face it. Your way of thinking is fading fast and will go the way of the Do Do when gold and silver claim their rightfully owned title as money once again.
paul – there are no free markets, there never have been, nor can there ever be. the value of money (whatever form it takes) is determined by whoever has the strongest army/police force. in your artificially constructed fantasy, when gold resumes it’s rightfully honor as ‘real money’, you will have to butt heads with the power of the state. ‘money’ (and its denominated value or purchasing power) is whatever the state demands taxes be paid in. the ‘free market’ has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
honest money is a creation of honest people – it is not something dragged out of the dirt and polished for popular consumption as a magical totem.
just as you and i are exchanging ideas via ‘words on paper’ (or computer screens) for all to evaluate freely – so too does honest paper money function freely. are my words, or your words ‘valuable’ because they are backed by a sufficient amount to gold, or silver in our pockets? the value of our differing ideas resides only in their fidelity to the truth.
Ok, so answer me this since you are so sure that gold isn’t money. If gold isn’t money, why do central banks hold it then? Why not hold diamonds or “thoughts” as u say are valuable? Apparently bankers know that gold is money or they wouldn’t be net buyers of it right now. Why is Germany and many other countries demanding their gold back? Why? U say its not money. Germany thinks so. Are they stupid too?
paul – no, the central bankers are not stupid. they are actually quite cunning. as long as a large segment of the ‘investing class’ are hypnotized by gold they will prudentially hold it. why not? they’ll be able to trade it at some point to those who cant understand the essential nature of money and make a handsome profit doing so. they’ll then take that profit, exchange it for legal tender – pay their taxes, purchase a gift for their girlfriends and reinvest the balance.
but the average citizen of the world will never have an ounce of it in his pocket. it will remain in the financial sector of the economy, passing between the hands of various elitists with more assets than they have ever rightfully earned. this is called usury.
usury is making money from money without the inconvenient drag of having to produce useful goods or services which other humans depend upon to live. usury is ultimately the core problem with the economy. regardless of what we use as symbols (gold, paper, feathers) unless there is an elimination of usury no form of currency will work in the long run.
gold is money only if a government will accept it as payment for taxes. a society could conceivable have more than one form of legal tender – say federal reserve notes and gold. maybe some countries do already – i dont really know. but, yes, then gold could be considered money. but i cannot imagine that gold/and or silver will ever be employed again as the only form of legal tender. this is why its a relic.
paper money does not have to be debt based. any sovereign government could just as easily create ‘honest’ paper money debt free and spend it into the economy. think abe lincoln/greenbacks. but in our system, as it stands now, paper money is borrowed into existence and is therefore debt. what we need to do is to convince our stupid politician that they have the constitutional authority to create our entire money supply debt free by issuing money themselves – we need neither the fed or any of its member banks to assist in this process.
nor do we need gold as money. gold should be used for something useful – why waste it by putting it in a bank vault?
And yes, there are free markets. If I were to sell a used truck to someone with an asking price, and the buyer suggests a price and we meet in the middle at a price we both agree on, the free market just determined the price of the truck. You’re just making these accusations that simply aren’t true. You say honest money is created by honest people. That may be possible in a perfect world where every single person in that world were honest. But we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a world where a few dishonest people want to lie, cheat and steal from the rest of the honest. Holding something physical outside of the reach of sticky fingers is the way we honest people can secure our wealth from criminal bankers. And you say that money’s value is determined by whoever has the biggest army. Armies are very expensive to maintain and operate and if u have no money, u have no army. Our military is only this big because it’s being paid for with temporarily unlimited funds through deficit spending of fiat dollars that are only imaginary. This can’t last. This entire fiat currency system is one huge debt bubble that’s about burst and when it does, people’s perception of value will shift to tangible assets and tangible money. They won’t even have to understand it. All they’re gonna see is prices in dollars skyrocket and they’re gonna panic and start spending those dollars to get real assets and commodities while the prices are still affordable. Those holding gold and silver will not have to panic because in real money, prices will fall for us and we will be able to more goods and services with our money. History proves this and is indisputable. You tell me what army is gonna determine what money is valuable when they don’t have the means to even feed themselves on fiat currency? You have a rude awakening coming and I can’t wait for this wealth transfer to occur. Your arrogance blinds you. I want you to walk into a coin shop and tell the owner that you don’t think gold is valuable so u want him to give it to u for free. Let me know how that turns out.
The greenback collapsed. So did the continental. So did the confederate notes. You still haven’t named me a paper currency that has survived. And also, I want u to tell me a time in history when gold or silver was worth zero. Don’t worry, I’ll wait…
the greenback collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because after the european bankers got wind of its issuance they successfully blocked any further greenback creation, shot lincoln, and invested in all the various state banks proliferating thru out the country. the debt free greenbacks were a threat to their dishonest credit/debt mechanisms.
the continentals collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because the british flooded the colonies with counterfeit continentals. and it didnt help that hamilton was pushing for a central bank at the same time.
the confederate notes collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because the confederacy was not a sovereign power which could tax its citizens effectively. not to mention, they lost the war.
can i point to a paper fiat currency that has stood the test of time. no. but neither can you point to a gold regime that has stood the test of time. the failure of both paper and gold is not due to the fact that they are paper or gold. all currencies collapse because of usury – and only usury.
will the dollar collapse? sure, of course. but not because its paper!!! it will collapse because of usury.
can we use gold as money? sure, of course. but not because its divisible, fungible, scarce, and a store of value! we can only use it if the government demands that we pay taxes in gold. the problem with gold is that no one will ever have enough of it to carry on exchanges and also pay taxes in it. because it’s scarce, only the most competitive and aggressive people will tend to acquire it. eventually, these very same people will take control of all centers of power. is that the kind of society you want to live in? that’s what we have now, isn’t it?
History shows that there’s a cycle or even a pendulum between hard money such as gold and silver and paper currency. As a paper fiat collapses the markets force the governments to utilise hard money. However, hard money requires much discipline and so fiats are created – sometimes merely as fractional of gold deposits – so the government can ‘fuel’ the economy.
I’m sure both of you know which way the cycle/pendulum is currently heading and are hope you are both positioning yourself accordingly.
I would expect hard money to have a long era after the fiat$US becomes a footnote from history. You guys will still have a $US, but it’ll be a hard money currency.
I agree with what you said Gareth. I don’t really care if we do have to use gold and silver as money again, but my point is that people who claim that gold and silver isn’t the best forms of money usually live in a time when the cycle is in the position of pretty stable economic times and therefore don’t really need the sound security of precious metals to be their store of wealth. I agree totally that economics swings like a pendulum. Even gold will eventually go into a bubble and one day become overvalued when it buys too much stuff per ounce. It is at that time that I will be preaching to sell gold and silver because at that time, gold and silver will have done its job and have already stabilized the economy by accounting for all paper currency and outstanding credit. There will be no need to hold it at that point and will move into a bear market. That will be the time to look for the next undervalued asset to invest in and ride that bull market up again. Without people controlling the economy however, these shifts may still occur but just not as dramatic of moves from overvalued to undervalued and back. Using gold and silver(or a classical gold standard based on 100% gold value redeemable notes) is the only way to maintain a stable healthy economy. Do I think we will all use gold and silver coins as money again? Maybe on a local level but internationally I think we will have to have a digital currency fully backed by gold and silver in order to function in today’s digital age.
Gold and silver, along with copper and perhaps nickel and platinum will be the money for a while, bud. You’re right about it varying from region to region and I would imagine those just south of you in Mexico etc could monetise silver instead of gold. Many areas probably will use another fiat – simply because they don’t have any mines or hard money stored. Internationally, though, I reckon trade between regions/countries/realms will be done with gold for the remainder of our lives.
I’m in England and I reckon we’ll go down the fiat currency route, one issued without debt, but we’ll need gold for international trade as other regions won’t accept it. Quite a historically achievement to convince the world to accept your local fiat currency. Don’t think that’s ever been done….oh……wait a minute…..:-)
I’ll keep stashing my silver, as I completely agree with you that it has intrinsic value.
Intrinsic Value: The substance still has value even when not being utilised as a currency.
gareth – thanks for acknowledging that i might be ‘correct at times’. i was kinda feeling all alone on the skinny branches of a tree that was being hammered at the trunk with a gold club.
the final point that i’d like to make is that the malignancy in the financial/monetary structure of the global economy is not going to be remedied by altering the ‘thing’ we use as money. as you’ve said (and paul seems to agree) there is a pendulum motion between competing forms of money. as one dies, the other grows. then that new form dies, and something else replaces it. this is the best evidence to show that the ‘form’ of the money is not the cause of injustices. the injustice lies somewhere else, out side of the specific form that money takes.
the problem is in how the form is manipulated and distorted. when money is acquired from productive enterprises it tends to be honest and straightforward. when money is acquired from trading in money it becomes dishonest and inflationary – usury.
it just seems to me that most of the people interested in gold and silver as money are ultimately trying to figure out how they can get ahead of everyone else by virtue of the fact that they are the holders of gold or silver. they are the smart ones. and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
*Check back later for the links, Jim* I think the links have triggered a ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’, clause. This is my reply minus the links:
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
*See other post for link*
And if you’re interested in tracking and logging historical debt-free fiat currencies, here’s one you might’ve missed:
*See other post for link*
PS I would encourage you again to purchase some physical silver.
gareth – buying gold/silver is the same as making an investment in gold and silver with the hope that they will yield more in the future. am i correct?
only people with expendable incomes can invest. correct?
what do honest people do with expendable incomes? do they speculate on the future? or do they recognize unmet needs and the attendant suffering in the world today and allocate this expendable income to relieve that misery?
to invest in gold and silver is to ignore the moral injunction that we are to care for each other today. no guarantees, but tomorrow we might have a second chance. caring for each other is what creates a world worth living in.
explain to me why you think i should speculate on silver with the resources god has blessed me with today. am i missing something?
For some it’s an investment, whilst for others it is a legitimate attack strategy to fatally wound the current bankers/banking system. ‘They’ are heavily leveraged on most commodities, especially silver, and each ounce taken out of their hands brings us closer to their downfall. People will not trust their fiats and their lies indefinitely, and many are walking away. Some are choosing hard money, but their are groups attempting to use debt-free fiats also.
The primary problem with ‘investing’ in helping others directly with fiat currency at the present moment is that you will also be helping the vampire-like powers-that-be to continue. Most charities are not what they appear to be, and many have a CEO on an above average salary.
I do, however, understand the reasoning and energy spent on food kitchens etc, but we do ultimately need to get rid of the insideous ‘money changers’ and remove them from our societal systems. Attacking them with ‘silver bullets’ is a way of doing so without self-sacrifice.
Yes, you are definitely missing something. You buy gold and silver so Ben Bernanke can’t inflate your purchasing power away. to understand why gold and silver are the best forms of money on this planet, you must accept that money has to have all 6 attributes and if you chose something else to be money, whatever that’s fine, bit accept the consequences of its substandard performance due to having a flaw. Copper only lacks one attribute: it’s not rare enough. Yes, it can be used as a currency, but it can never be money being as abundant as it is. People can try to use anything they choose as a form of currency and indeed throughout history they have, but nothing ever worked as well as gold and silver. Everything else has a flaw or multiple flaws and therefore people, through trial and error came to the conclusion that when they used gold and silver as their currency, and let free markets determine their value based on the amount of transactions made, that was the times of the most economic liberty and prosperity. Yes, there were booms and busts and growth is slower, but it’s a slower growth and it was solid and real. It’s only when we let bankers convince us that paper is better that we end up in some sort of debt bubble that always comes to a devastating end. Look at John Law’s France in 1720. Tulip Mania in 1637. South Sea Bubble…all results of bankers or people that lose sight of what the best forms of money is. People never seem to learn this.
just dont deposit money in their banks. in fact, withdraw what you have. if enough people did that the entire system would implode tomorrow.
but people wont do that. why not?
because people with expendable incomes make money from their deposits – usury- and they love it. the only reason the banking system can exist is because people believe they are entitled to make money from money. the banks simply leverage the selfish greed of their depositors and promise them this interest. the banks and most orthodox economists encourage this by convincing people that money actually has value (or can be a store of value), in fact, it can even have babies. it reproduces itself in the hands of the brilliant bankers.
so, the problem is the greed of the depositors and their enthusiasm to accept the lie that money can and does reproduce itself without the exertion of their own labor. banking is just the natural consequence of this fallacy.
why some people have an expendable income at all is another huge problem. maybe a topic for another day…thanks for the conversation, paul and gareth
Well, yes, if people stopped supporting the debt paradigm then the thing would blow up.
Can you not recognise that the gold and silver stackers are doing just that, but instead of simply withdrawing pieces of paper to stuff under their mattress they’re converting it into the ‘timeless’ and ‘regionless’ money of gold and/or silver?
no, i do not recognize that garth. what i see are gold and silver bugs trying to game the system for their individual benefits. it is obvious to me that gold and silver bugs do not understand the very nature of money and that their incessant prejudice for a metallic currency/money serves the status quo much more than the suffering poor. their claims sound reasonable but in the end will prove to be quite hollow – maybe even ugly.
money is a contract of trust between two parties. the two parties are NOT the buyer and the seller. the two parties are the seller and the government that issues the money. the buyer receives the goods and is made whole. the seller receives ‘money’ -’symbols’ as an insurance policy from the government that guarantees that the holder of the money(the seller) will be made whole at a future date. the money is a claim against everyone in the society via their agent – the government or issuing authority. this is why money should only be issued debt free (in fiat form – all contracts are fiat) by a sovereign government -and one with an honest judicial system.
‘competing currencies’ will never add dignity to this arrangement. to advocate for competing currencies is to not understand the nature of money or its simple purpose.
all money is fiat money – and necessarily so because all money is simply an insurance policy between the seller and the government. money, like all contracts, are established with ‘words on paper’. what does gold or silver add to this reality? absolutely nothing.
if you want to live with other human beings under a government then this is your monetary reality. if you want to hide in the brushes and play monopoly with gold and silver then go right ahead. but do not expect everyone else to snuggle up to your fiction.
can we make the system more just. sure. let’s focus on usury.
Oh, and by-the-way, most monetary systems of the past have been based upon the weight and the purity of the metal being used which is transparent and unambiguous. For example our English sterling commenced life as a troy pound of sterling silver divided into 1/20th of a troy ounce…..pennies. I can provide numerous examples of weight and purity being the basis of the currency cupply but i’ll leave you to research this fact from history for yourself. This also leads into my next fact – we do not need a government to have a medium of exchange….i.e. money needn’t be a fiat one backed by a government.
Anyways, people don’t always agree on things so best to just leave this with us in disagreement.
Jim, you keep saying money when you should be saying currency. Paper is a currency. Not money. Only gold and silver are money. And why do you have this hatred for gold and silver so much? Just accept it. It is money. Period. It’s not my rules, it’s not my choice, it just is. No one can change that fact. The quicker you accept it, the better off you’re gonna be. And yes I do stack to pull the legs out from under this evil corrupt system. Do you think I like to see people in third world countries starving and struggling so lazy Americans can lay around and collect a check they think they deserve. There’s nothing I did to Iraqis that I can say I’m proud of. Nothing. When the dollar collapses, it will be a huge weight lifted off the shoulders of third world nations as all that debt is lifted and dealt with. So all I can say is Jim, you do whatever you want with your money. That is your choice sir. I have no problem with that. I will continue to do what I feel is right with mine and good luck to us all. Gareth, Jim, have a nice day.
paul – i dont think americans are any lazier than anyone else. they just have more opportunities to express it. when/if the dollar collapses those opportunities will diminish. but i cannot see how anyone else’s life will improve. the nature of people seems pretty constant over all times. good nite
gareth – what does it matter what money was in the past? whatever it was it has never worked! let’s not use the past as a model for designing an honest system for today. let’s be adults and have the courage to start from scratch.
MMT has some very excellent knowledge but they, like most philosophies, are afraid to look at usury squarely and recognize that it is at the very root of every problem in the economy. Usury should be outlawed, just like every other form of fraud. good nite to you
I agree about usury, I often write about the diabolical nature of it and the consequences of using it. In our current climate it’s reached governmental level in the form of a bond placing us all into the hands of the usury masters.
The only problem with what you’re saying, Jim, is that you are essentially advocating a ban on usury accompanied with a benevolent government that issues debt-free currency for the population to use. Unfortunately we all endure a malevolent government that is in cahoots with the very money changers/usury artists you wish to put out of business. This is further compounded by the fact the majority of people haven’t a clue to how the monetary system operated and their government’s involvement.
Essentially, what I am saying is that I cannot see simply trying to educate the people and campaigning to the government as working. There’s a group called Positive Money here in the UK which was ‘granted’ a hearing by the MPC and they basically got fobbed off as they were proposing debt-free currency to be pumped into the system via government spending thus removing the diabolical bond. There’s also a group called the BCG that are attempting to activate what they call the ‘sovereign pound’ which would be based upon the greenback from your neck of the woods.
Overall we need to be ‘pragmatic’ which effectively means crashing/bankrupting the governments and their partners in crime – the banking fraternity. This does mean attacking the commodities they’re highly leveraged upon and crashing their bonds.
It’s a shame it needs to ‘go down’ like this, but I’m afraid your strategy of going directly from a government in cahoots with the usury practitioners to a government that serves the people simply will not happen and it’s not something I would personally put too much energy into.
Ok, all good points. All very smart positions. So, if I may ask, what is worse? Usury, Inflation or Fractional Reserve Banking? I am attaching a video I posted ages ago, not that anyone needs a primer, but just for food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_egBPM9tnzo&feature=player_detailpage
gareth – as i mentioned earlier, the problem with ‘the system’ is ultimately about the desire/lust of people to seek a return on their money without the inconvenience of having to work for it.
this lust is not only what animates the banking system, it animates most everyone with expendable income. typically expendable income is spent/invested in ‘money making money’ schemes such as stocks, bonds, insurances, savings accts, jewelry, art, education, gold (!), silver(!) etc. etc.
all these ‘investments’ add nothing to our ability to care for each other in the present. all these ‘investments’ simply make a claim on the future. people ‘pretend’ that it is advantageous to differ spending ‘now’ for the allure that future rewards are sweeter. this is the true nature of usury.
why?
because the purpose of money is only realizes in the very act of spending it. the purpose of money is not realized when money is ‘invested/saved’. invested/saved money is always subject to manipulation – spent money is not. usury could not exist unless money was invested or saved.
the tragic propensity of human beings is to be utterly and willfully blind to the suffering of their neighbors. people turn a blind eye to the realities right in front of their noses and capriciously invest in their own future. this propensity is not only selfish on a personal moral level – it is also what degrades the entire social economy and all things in it. as preposterous as this will sound to most it is nevertheless true – the reason banks exist is to funnel expendable income away from the obvious needs of today to a selfish lust of future pleasures. usury is the instrumentality that ‘justifies’ this desire. and at the core of this diabolical justification is the altogether erroneous rationalization that ‘money is a store of value’. but honest money is not a store of value, nor can it ever be. money can only be a medium of exchange, and it can only be a medium of exchange in the very act of spending it – in the here and now.
this fundamental precept, that money ‘has no value’ but is only a medium of exchange’ is totally lost with the gold bugs. the gold bugs have inverted the very meaning and purpose of money by claiming that ‘gold always holds its value’ and is therefore ‘honest’ money. nothing could be further from the truth!
money has no value other than its utilitarian value as a medium of exchange. meditate on that…please! until and unless you understand the very meaning and purpose of money there is no possibility of establishing an honest financial/monetary system. none. you may pretend, you may conjecture, you may rationalize, you may insist, you may hope – but you never will do it.
to their credit, gold bugs are at least aware of the fact that the system is screwed up, but their medicine is at least as debilitating as the sickness itself – and in my opinion worse. it offers a false hope. it erects a stumbling block to the innocent who are trying, as best they can, to make some kind of sense out of the entire mess.
i would ask you gareth, and everyone else who visits the dont-tread- on- me site, to take a step back and examine critically your basic assumptions about the very nature and purpose of money before you encourage others to ‘stack (hoard?) silver. the freedom you’re looking for will be found when you have the humility to take that second look at your own claims.
It’s not that I disagree with your views totally, Jim, I just think your strategy at addressing the problem will not be solved through campaigning for a government to issue a pseudo-greenback. The governments in the modern world are in cahoots with the banksters. Some state they are one-in-the-same, but I regard them as seperate entities – partners in crime if you will.
Also, the masses will not realise their folly of usury, fractional reserve banking etc until they lose their wealth in a mighty default in the form of counter party risk. Which is coming and will hardly encourage the masses to trust a government guaranteed fiat currency anyway – which is yet another flaw in your strategy.
My main disagreement with you is your opposition to holding gold and silver. I own much currency from yesterday in the form of .500 silver coins. These still have value even though they are not fiat, i.e. not backed by a government. They can be used for direct trade or transfered into today’s currency. In other words they are retain their value even though their is no law stated that they should.
My main agreement is that gold in itself isn’t the answer as most people don’t hold nor own it.
I advocate decentralised currency in which the market decides the medium-of-exchange, not an individual, set of individuals, nor some corrupt centralised government.
Finally, you appear to perceive yourself as some ‘deep thinker’ of some description and that those that disagree with you need to ‘contemplate’. I must forewarn you that condescending an individual will not find you favour, and there are many people that may think differently to you, but that does not mean they think in a deficient manner.
I must also pick you up on one thing, ” money can only be a medium of exchange, and it can only be a medium of exchange in the very act of spending it – in the here and now.”
Like a squirrel storing for less abundant times, money is stored by humans for periods in which less ‘stuff’ is gathered, for example retirement. Gold and silver serve this function. So you are entirely wrong with your ‘live in the moment’ proposition to the concept of money.
usury is also the very ‘purpose’ that animates fractional reserve banking – in fact, any form of banking
so usury wins the distinction as the worst principle, hands down.
its curiously interesting that the movers and shakers, the investment class, the media shills, the art world, the evangelists, orthodox economists and politicians never bring up the subject. perhaps, its difficult for them to be introspective?
Ok, I guess can we define inflation? Technically, I have always thought inflation was an increase in the money supply and deflation was a decrease in the money supply. We have all been trained to extrapolate what the effects of the increases and decreases is/are and we call upward price volitility based on increased money supply inflation and via versa for deflation. Those can also be diluted because up and down volitility can also be caused by supply and demand of goods. (and the money supply as well, but I digress)
Usury, again IMHO, has always been the lending of money with an “interest” charge for its use. Usually with some sort of collateral to securitize the repayment. Lets not get into the economic arguements of Hayek and Keynes nor should we try to diseminate how Capital affects growth (I consider those topics sophisticated vood-doo somewhat)
Enter Frac Reserve Banking, again, IMHO, is a combination of both Usuary and Inflation (increase in the money supply)in which all moeny is created as interest based debt. And therefore, more evil than either one individually. Fractional Reserve Banking is both, bt mainly it is creation of money as debt with interest.
I ge the argument against usuary. I get the argument against increasing the money supply. If the money supply was fixed, then usury would not be a subiquitous as it is. But to create ALL MONEY as debt with interest, now thats quite a trick.
So I agree and disagree. I would submit that Central Banking (as we know it today anyway) is the culprit and usury and inflation are just the tools. Food for thought, and I welcome your thoughts.
You can’t usurp an educated population. Educated people understand usury and the means of it. So they hold gold and silver in their private possession to protect their wealth from usury. It’s only when they get complacent and let their let their guard down to psychopaths do they begin that long road to hell like we did in 1913. Gareth was right to say people forget over time and have to relearn this. Now’s the time to relearn quick so we can use our new found wealth to start over and help humanity recover from this nightmare. Because this debt and death paradigm is coming to an end. What is money today may not be money tomorrow. But in reality, gold and silver never really left as money. It was just waiting on the sidelines for us to fall so it could come in and help us back up.
Interesting video. I would say that the days of stock market investing are over. To corrupt and to many computers control it. Gold, silver, and real estate are the only investments I will be in.
Why not just track inflation yourself? If you compare gas, the Dow, ect to silver and gold you will see that the amount an ounce of silver buys is going up. For example, the Dow was at 1500 ounces of silver, now its around 445. If you owned dollar based stocks then you just lost around 66 percent, but if you owned silver then you see what happened. I agree 100% with Paul on this. There is no way in hell I would be saving paper dollars, silver and gold are safer and have a better ROI.
the THING that you (and paul) claim money to be has never, ever, worked to the benefit of the laboring poor. is there anything more obvious that that?!
yet , you want to insist that money cannot be nothing else. why not? it’s as though you’re stuck in a gold plated sewer. sure, of course, you can trade your gold. and it always will have value to those who accept it. so what! does that somehow establish its credibility?
when everybody has the same amount of gold for the same amount of sweat equity then i’ll recognize gold as money. but that never will happens, right? why dont you ask yourself why?
I prefer to utilse the distinction between money and currency rather than mix them together. Anyhting can me used as currency, but I agree with the definition that money should/must have a store of value.
Currency is energy, and it being exchanged is energy flow – at least that’s one perspective. This would logically follow that ‘money’ in the form of precious metals is ‘stored’ energy – waiting to be used at a later date.
I’m all in favour of debt-free treasury notes being issued, but I can’t see that happening anytime soon, and as I indicated a few replies back I believe there is a cycle between paper currency and hard money……..with the latter becoming more prominent by the day.
Perhaps when the pendulum/cycle swings back there’ll be a debt-free fiat, but I really do not foresee humanity going from the current paradigm to such a form of currency – the evidence of the ‘return to gold’ is accumulating by the day.
PS. Yes, if people accept gold/silver for trade of course it’s provides credibility to the theory it can be used. WTF?
PPS I’ve a six-month old son, so this isn’t a game to me, nor am I seeking some Utopia on earth. Reality is I need to survive until he’s old enough to fend for himself. I intend to do this and I believe physical silver will provide a useful tool for this goal/
PPPS The labouring poor are alwsys screwed no matter what the currency/money.
gareth – i think you’re absolutely right. you’re silver stocks will no doubt benefit you and your son. unfortunately, it will also be to the harm of many, many others … but like you said ‘the laboring poor will always be screwed’. i might add- hungry people don’t aim that well…so you should be in great shape.
Jim, ur right, people can choose to use anything they want as their currency. My poiny is that I think ur just not getting is you will never get a better performing currency than gold or silver and history proves this. People will use whatever currency they see providing them the most goods and services for their money but until the free markets finally take back over and prove that after this dollar collapse, and it will, the bankers won’t allow a free market to exist while they still control it due to people’s trust in their paper still. But that trust has been fading and eventually be gone. They may try to introduce a new currency paper or digital but people are just not gonna trust it after seeing every paper currency on earth fail at the same time thru hyperinflation. They’re only gonna trust what they can see held its value and gained purchasing power and you’ve seen the past 12 years gold and silver do that and they will continue to do so. And to say that laboring people are always screwed is something I disagree with. Maybe the uneducated ones are sure and that’s most of the laboring folks but they’re screwed because they’re uneducated not because they are laborers. They’re screwed because they grow up not knowing what money really is and not having any real financial education. Jim, people will accept gold and silver because they will see it buying the most goods and services for the money than anything else. You can say whatever baloney you want to because you’re a gold hater but you can’t prove me wrong. People aren’t gonna be using paper notes to buy food when it takes a wheelbarrow full of it to buy a loaf of bread. Don’t u know your history? I think you’re in that category that’s gonna have to relearn this. To say that gold and silver has never benefitted the working poor is absolutely the most dumbest thing I’ve heard from you here. Poor people have used silver coins for thousands of years just fine. Poor people struggle and stay broke not because of the type of currency they use. They stay broke because they piss their money away on too many liabilities and never buy assets and then blame people that do make good decisions with their for them being poor. I see this evryday. Jim, out of everything you have said here you sound to me like a socialist or a communist. They never like gold because gold is the money of a capitalist, and capitalists want the best quality money we can use.
Hey Chris,
Just wanted to take a moment out of my life to thank you for all the life changing decisions/events that have occurred because of the information you've brought to the forefront when I discovered you, DTOM, & the SOL academy.
I shunned the psychopaths in my life, closed my facebook, took every hour of free time to see the academy and read A LOT (a first for me), learned that I have a deep innate thirst for knowledge and teaching, jumped head first on topics I would have NEVER taken an interest in if not for waking up (finance, economics, politics, psychology, to name a few), and view everything in a completely different, but forward thinking and more intricate way.
What you say is so true ... "once your eyes are open, you can never close them again" - EVER.
The magnitude of all the changes that I've made in my life because of the SOL academy are so huge that I can't even begin to put a word on it. It's like a golden seed of life, love & truth, planted in my mind that is making me realize what does matter, what is real, and what I want be at the end of the day to myself, loved ones, and the world.
Hope you're having a well-deserved and wonderful time with your family. A toast to you, the individuals in our group, and all the great and positive things to come despite such times.
Peace.
- Irving A.
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I would look for information on my own and it would take me a lot of time but to have it done and just to be able to build on that is great.
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Gold and Silver are without a doubt the undefeated heavyweight champions of the world when it comes to being money. Why people let themselves forget that, I’ll never know but whether they understand it or not, gold and silver will revalue themselves and catch up to all this funny money and as mike Maloney says, bring fraudulent money to justice. Keep stacking my friends, and keep up the great work Chris and Rahul.
gold will not return as money.
why?
because gold no longer occupies the imaginations of most people as it might have in the past. the human imagination has evolved to a point that it can no longer indulge in pretending that a shiny metal can properly serve as a symbol of value.
sure, there are those who can construct rationalizations supporting the claim that gold ‘could’ be used as money. but, these claims lack the force necessary to reestablish gold as a sufficiently meaningful symbol to persuade the human imagination to accept gold.
why?
because a symbol must animate the mind. and to animate the mind people need to have a personal relationship with the symbol.
notwithstanding all your erudite historical analysis, you fail to understand that money can only be a symbol. and a symbol only assumes its power in the subjective human mind – not as a component of logical arguments.
one more point, rahul….
there is a very good reason that only ‘paper with ink on it’ (fiat) can serve as money.
it would be a very useful exercise for you, (and virtually all the other regulars visiting dont-tread-on-me) to ponder why it is that ‘paper with ink on it’ will always be the form that money resides in. what is it about this symbol that gives it its power and legitimacy?
could it be that ‘paper with ink on it’ is the form that best communicates what all people, everywhere, hold most dear?
here’s a hint… ‘truth’ may be conveyed by this symbol
‘honest contracts’ may be composed via this symbol
its a symbol familiar to all and affordable to all
Jim, that’s the same crap we’ve heard time and time again. Paper is not money. If you don’t understand why, let me explain it for you. Paper lacks 3 out of the attributes of money. Paper is not rare, it’s not durable and it’s not a store of value over long periods of time. So for you to say that paper is the only thing that can be used for money shows everyone how uneducated and arrogant you are. Show me one paper currency that has survived the ages and I may listen to you. Paper is probably one of the worst things we can trust and use as money. Paper money is pushed on people as money only by those who wish to steal our wealth through printing more and more of it. So until they learn to print gold and silver, they are and will remain the best forms of money available to us whether you like it or not. Boy they brainwashed you good, didn’t they?
Paper is the best form of money for a banker who likes to steal. However I kinda like to hold on to my wealth and prefer a money that bankers can’t print, therefore will hold its value. The 6 attributes of money are: Durable, Portable, Divisible, Fungible, Rare, And a store of value over long periods of time. You can put anything on a list next to these 6 attributes and go down the line and if that item lacks one or more attributes, it is a flaw and therefore is disqualified as money. When using this method you can clearly see that gold and silver are the only 2 things left standing. So gold and silver really are money because everything else is not based on the fact everything else has a flaw or multiple flaws (paper). In the end, people will rush to asset classes that they see holding value and nothing will shine brighter at doing that than you guessed it: Gold and Silver.
paul – please give me the space to try again.
gold is only an effective symbol to be used as money for an illiterate society. historically, it ‘represented’ value only because those in control used it to embellish their claim to power by decorating their regal institutions or religious ceremonies with it. crowns were made of gold and holy books were encased by it. it came to ‘represent’, to ‘symbolize’ both truth and power.
but this ‘effect’ cannot and does not persuade a literate people. the human imagination has transcended this connection and now regards gold only as a relic.
if gold were used as money again what in your estimation would prevent its purchasing power from being manipulated? gold would still be ‘on deposit in a vault’ and paper notes (digital bleeps) would still be called upon to circulate in its place. certainly, people would not transact exchanges with gold coins in their pockets! why would we need a symbol (paper) to represent another symbol (gold) to represent another symbol (equitable value) to represent a ‘hope’ that we will be able to count on in the future ( to cash in on something real – like food, water, energy)
‘money’ has no value itself – it can only represents hope, and trust.
all the characteristics that you claim money must have are simply the characteristics that the banks want you to believe in as true and immutable.
why?
because if they can convince you that money ‘has value’ you will then offer it to them for protection. it is you, paul, who is at risk of being brainwashed. the banks would like nothing better than to have people (like you) believe that gold is money. they will easily acquire all the gold and denominate its ‘value’ for their benefit. not yours or mine. there is nothing about ‘gold’ itself that will prevent this from happening. regrettably, you are playing into their game and doing so with remarkable conviction.
money can never be a ‘store of value’ – it’s only a symbol. it cannot store anything, any more than a photograph of a mouth could devour a hamburger.
Ha. Man what a vivid imagination you have. Banks don’t determine the value of gold, the free markets do that. That is the free markets job. And you’re wrong to say that money has to be valueless. You’re putting yourself in that group of people that call gold “barbarous” and a “relic”. But those are the same people drinking that “barbarous” water and still sweeping their floors with that “barbarous” broom. Some things in life don’t need improvement if they’re just fine the way they are. The attitude that you present is showing that you think you are better than gold. Humans always get arrogant and think that they can cheat gold. Gold isn’t greedy, gold won’t lie, cheat and steal. Humans will. So for people to use a money that is determined by a human is financial suicide. Either you are being paid to spread this propaganda or you really are that stupid. Either way, you’re not convincing anyone here that you’re right. This is a website for freedom loving patriots who want to teach the truth and value liberty. Not promote the same type of thinking that got us in this mess in the first place. Our economy in shambles proves that your way of thinking is the problem. Paper money is debt, the solution is the opposite. Money. Face it. Your way of thinking is fading fast and will go the way of the Do Do when gold and silver claim their rightfully owned title as money once again.
paul – there are no free markets, there never have been, nor can there ever be. the value of money (whatever form it takes) is determined by whoever has the strongest army/police force. in your artificially constructed fantasy, when gold resumes it’s rightfully honor as ‘real money’, you will have to butt heads with the power of the state. ‘money’ (and its denominated value or purchasing power) is whatever the state demands taxes be paid in. the ‘free market’ has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
honest money is a creation of honest people – it is not something dragged out of the dirt and polished for popular consumption as a magical totem.
just as you and i are exchanging ideas via ‘words on paper’ (or computer screens) for all to evaluate freely – so too does honest paper money function freely. are my words, or your words ‘valuable’ because they are backed by a sufficient amount to gold, or silver in our pockets? the value of our differing ideas resides only in their fidelity to the truth.
Ok, so answer me this since you are so sure that gold isn’t money. If gold isn’t money, why do central banks hold it then? Why not hold diamonds or “thoughts” as u say are valuable? Apparently bankers know that gold is money or they wouldn’t be net buyers of it right now. Why is Germany and many other countries demanding their gold back? Why? U say its not money. Germany thinks so. Are they stupid too?
paul – no, the central bankers are not stupid. they are actually quite cunning. as long as a large segment of the ‘investing class’ are hypnotized by gold they will prudentially hold it. why not? they’ll be able to trade it at some point to those who cant understand the essential nature of money and make a handsome profit doing so. they’ll then take that profit, exchange it for legal tender – pay their taxes, purchase a gift for their girlfriends and reinvest the balance.
but the average citizen of the world will never have an ounce of it in his pocket. it will remain in the financial sector of the economy, passing between the hands of various elitists with more assets than they have ever rightfully earned. this is called usury.
usury is making money from money without the inconvenient drag of having to produce useful goods or services which other humans depend upon to live. usury is ultimately the core problem with the economy. regardless of what we use as symbols (gold, paper, feathers) unless there is an elimination of usury no form of currency will work in the long run.
gold is money only if a government will accept it as payment for taxes. a society could conceivable have more than one form of legal tender – say federal reserve notes and gold. maybe some countries do already – i dont really know. but, yes, then gold could be considered money. but i cannot imagine that gold/and or silver will ever be employed again as the only form of legal tender. this is why its a relic.
paper money does not have to be debt based. any sovereign government could just as easily create ‘honest’ paper money debt free and spend it into the economy. think abe lincoln/greenbacks. but in our system, as it stands now, paper money is borrowed into existence and is therefore debt. what we need to do is to convince our stupid politician that they have the constitutional authority to create our entire money supply debt free by issuing money themselves – we need neither the fed or any of its member banks to assist in this process.
nor do we need gold as money. gold should be used for something useful – why waste it by putting it in a bank vault?
And yes, there are free markets. If I were to sell a used truck to someone with an asking price, and the buyer suggests a price and we meet in the middle at a price we both agree on, the free market just determined the price of the truck. You’re just making these accusations that simply aren’t true. You say honest money is created by honest people. That may be possible in a perfect world where every single person in that world were honest. But we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a world where a few dishonest people want to lie, cheat and steal from the rest of the honest. Holding something physical outside of the reach of sticky fingers is the way we honest people can secure our wealth from criminal bankers. And you say that money’s value is determined by whoever has the biggest army. Armies are very expensive to maintain and operate and if u have no money, u have no army. Our military is only this big because it’s being paid for with temporarily unlimited funds through deficit spending of fiat dollars that are only imaginary. This can’t last. This entire fiat currency system is one huge debt bubble that’s about burst and when it does, people’s perception of value will shift to tangible assets and tangible money. They won’t even have to understand it. All they’re gonna see is prices in dollars skyrocket and they’re gonna panic and start spending those dollars to get real assets and commodities while the prices are still affordable. Those holding gold and silver will not have to panic because in real money, prices will fall for us and we will be able to more goods and services with our money. History proves this and is indisputable. You tell me what army is gonna determine what money is valuable when they don’t have the means to even feed themselves on fiat currency? You have a rude awakening coming and I can’t wait for this wealth transfer to occur. Your arrogance blinds you. I want you to walk into a coin shop and tell the owner that you don’t think gold is valuable so u want him to give it to u for free. Let me know how that turns out.
The greenback collapsed. So did the continental. So did the confederate notes. You still haven’t named me a paper currency that has survived. And also, I want u to tell me a time in history when gold or silver was worth zero. Don’t worry, I’ll wait…
here’s what history proves…
the greenback collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because after the european bankers got wind of its issuance they successfully blocked any further greenback creation, shot lincoln, and invested in all the various state banks proliferating thru out the country. the debt free greenbacks were a threat to their dishonest credit/debt mechanisms.
the continentals collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because the british flooded the colonies with counterfeit continentals. and it didnt help that hamilton was pushing for a central bank at the same time.
the confederate notes collapsed, yes, but not because it was paper. it collapsed because the confederacy was not a sovereign power which could tax its citizens effectively. not to mention, they lost the war.
can i point to a paper fiat currency that has stood the test of time. no. but neither can you point to a gold regime that has stood the test of time. the failure of both paper and gold is not due to the fact that they are paper or gold. all currencies collapse because of usury – and only usury.
will the dollar collapse? sure, of course. but not because its paper!!! it will collapse because of usury.
can we use gold as money? sure, of course. but not because its divisible, fungible, scarce, and a store of value! we can only use it if the government demands that we pay taxes in gold. the problem with gold is that no one will ever have enough of it to carry on exchanges and also pay taxes in it. because it’s scarce, only the most competitive and aggressive people will tend to acquire it. eventually, these very same people will take control of all centers of power. is that the kind of society you want to live in? that’s what we have now, isn’t it?
Paul and Jim.
You’re both correct and incorrect at times.
History shows that there’s a cycle or even a pendulum between hard money such as gold and silver and paper currency. As a paper fiat collapses the markets force the governments to utilise hard money. However, hard money requires much discipline and so fiats are created – sometimes merely as fractional of gold deposits – so the government can ‘fuel’ the economy.
I’m sure both of you know which way the cycle/pendulum is currently heading and are hope you are both positioning yourself accordingly.
I would expect hard money to have a long era after the fiat$US becomes a footnote from history. You guys will still have a $US, but it’ll be a hard money currency.
I agree with what you said Gareth. I don’t really care if we do have to use gold and silver as money again, but my point is that people who claim that gold and silver isn’t the best forms of money usually live in a time when the cycle is in the position of pretty stable economic times and therefore don’t really need the sound security of precious metals to be their store of wealth. I agree totally that economics swings like a pendulum. Even gold will eventually go into a bubble and one day become overvalued when it buys too much stuff per ounce. It is at that time that I will be preaching to sell gold and silver because at that time, gold and silver will have done its job and have already stabilized the economy by accounting for all paper currency and outstanding credit. There will be no need to hold it at that point and will move into a bear market. That will be the time to look for the next undervalued asset to invest in and ride that bull market up again. Without people controlling the economy however, these shifts may still occur but just not as dramatic of moves from overvalued to undervalued and back. Using gold and silver(or a classical gold standard based on 100% gold value redeemable notes) is the only way to maintain a stable healthy economy. Do I think we will all use gold and silver coins as money again? Maybe on a local level but internationally I think we will have to have a digital currency fully backed by gold and silver in order to function in today’s digital age.
Gold and silver, along with copper and perhaps nickel and platinum will be the money for a while, bud. You’re right about it varying from region to region and I would imagine those just south of you in Mexico etc could monetise silver instead of gold. Many areas probably will use another fiat – simply because they don’t have any mines or hard money stored. Internationally, though, I reckon trade between regions/countries/realms will be done with gold for the remainder of our lives.
I’m in England and I reckon we’ll go down the fiat currency route, one issued without debt, but we’ll need gold for international trade as other regions won’t accept it. Quite a historically achievement to convince the world to accept your local fiat currency. Don’t think that’s ever been done….oh……wait a minute…..:-)
I’ll keep stashing my silver, as I completely agree with you that it has intrinsic value.
Intrinsic Value: The substance still has value even when not being utilised as a currency.
G’luck, Paul.
Gareth
Long live Silver!
gareth – thanks for acknowledging that i might be ‘correct at times’. i was kinda feeling all alone on the skinny branches of a tree that was being hammered at the trunk with a gold club.
the final point that i’d like to make is that the malignancy in the financial/monetary structure of the global economy is not going to be remedied by altering the ‘thing’ we use as money. as you’ve said (and paul seems to agree) there is a pendulum motion between competing forms of money. as one dies, the other grows. then that new form dies, and something else replaces it. this is the best evidence to show that the ‘form’ of the money is not the cause of injustices. the injustice lies somewhere else, out side of the specific form that money takes.
the problem is in how the form is manipulated and distorted. when money is acquired from productive enterprises it tends to be honest and straightforward. when money is acquired from trading in money it becomes dishonest and inflationary – usury.
it just seems to me that most of the people interested in gold and silver as money are ultimately trying to figure out how they can get ahead of everyone else by virtue of the fact that they are the holders of gold or silver. they are the smart ones. and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=10543
And if you’re interested in tracking and logging historical debt-free fiat currencies, here’s one you might’ve missed:
http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=26456
PS I would encourage you again to purchase some physical silver.
G’luck
Peace&Freedom, Peace&Freedom
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=10543
And if you’re interested in tracking and logging historical debt-free fiat currencies, here’s one you might’ve missed:
http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=26456
PS I would encourage you again to purchase some physical silver.
G’luck
Peace&Freedom, Peace&Freedom
*Check back later for the links, Jim* I think the links have triggered a ‘your comment is awaiting moderation’, clause. This is my reply minus the links:
“and now that they have the ‘right’ kind of money their lives will be much better than the rest of us stupid brainwashed idiots who have none. tell me i’m wrong, but it smells just like usury to me.”
Hi Jim. Firstly, I do recommend that you acquire some physical silver, bud, along with other items such as tinned-food, bartering items, and ‘survival’ gear.
Secondly, I do agree with you that a return to gold and silver as currency money isn’t some magical cure to the injustices in the world. I frequently remind people that the Roth encouraged the use the government bonds – arguably the ‘seed’ of today’s monetary paradigm – and purchased such bonds with gold. Usury can be practiced on anything really……it is essentially “i’ll lend you ten units of X and you repay me 12″. When this is done at a governmental level in places the citizens in debt and taxation increases year-on-year.
I believe many ‘gold’ and ‘silver’ bugs are not intending to practice usury, and are merely looking to survive and thrive.
If you want my own personal and humble opinion, we need competing currencies including debt-free fiats, hard money and whatever else the market deems a useful medium of exchange.
I once posted two pictures to illustrate my views on competing and multiple currencies, if you’ve got a second have a quick gander.
*See other post for link*
And if you’re interested in tracking and logging historical debt-free fiat currencies, here’s one you might’ve missed:
*See other post for link*
PS I would encourage you again to purchase some physical silver.
G’luck
Peace&Freedom, Peace&Freedom
gareth – buying gold/silver is the same as making an investment in gold and silver with the hope that they will yield more in the future. am i correct?
only people with expendable incomes can invest. correct?
what do honest people do with expendable incomes? do they speculate on the future? or do they recognize unmet needs and the attendant suffering in the world today and allocate this expendable income to relieve that misery?
to invest in gold and silver is to ignore the moral injunction that we are to care for each other today. no guarantees, but tomorrow we might have a second chance. caring for each other is what creates a world worth living in.
explain to me why you think i should speculate on silver with the resources god has blessed me with today. am i missing something?
For some it’s an investment, whilst for others it is a legitimate attack strategy to fatally wound the current bankers/banking system. ‘They’ are heavily leveraged on most commodities, especially silver, and each ounce taken out of their hands brings us closer to their downfall. People will not trust their fiats and their lies indefinitely, and many are walking away. Some are choosing hard money, but their are groups attempting to use debt-free fiats also.
The primary problem with ‘investing’ in helping others directly with fiat currency at the present moment is that you will also be helping the vampire-like powers-that-be to continue. Most charities are not what they appear to be, and many have a CEO on an above average salary.
I do, however, understand the reasoning and energy spent on food kitchens etc, but we do ultimately need to get rid of the insideous ‘money changers’ and remove them from our societal systems. Attacking them with ‘silver bullets’ is a way of doing so without self-sacrifice.
Yes, you are definitely missing something. You buy gold and silver so Ben Bernanke can’t inflate your purchasing power away. to understand why gold and silver are the best forms of money on this planet, you must accept that money has to have all 6 attributes and if you chose something else to be money, whatever that’s fine, bit accept the consequences of its substandard performance due to having a flaw. Copper only lacks one attribute: it’s not rare enough. Yes, it can be used as a currency, but it can never be money being as abundant as it is. People can try to use anything they choose as a form of currency and indeed throughout history they have, but nothing ever worked as well as gold and silver. Everything else has a flaw or multiple flaws and therefore people, through trial and error came to the conclusion that when they used gold and silver as their currency, and let free markets determine their value based on the amount of transactions made, that was the times of the most economic liberty and prosperity. Yes, there were booms and busts and growth is slower, but it’s a slower growth and it was solid and real. It’s only when we let bankers convince us that paper is better that we end up in some sort of debt bubble that always comes to a devastating end. Look at John Law’s France in 1720. Tulip Mania in 1637. South Sea Bubble…all results of bankers or people that lose sight of what the best forms of money is. People never seem to learn this.
“People never seem to learn this.”
They do, but then they forget generations down the line, then they ‘learn’ again, then they forget…………
The world is about to learn again.
Keep stacking, Paul.
G’luck
here’s a better way to get rid of bernanke….
just dont deposit money in their banks. in fact, withdraw what you have. if enough people did that the entire system would implode tomorrow.
but people wont do that. why not?
because people with expendable incomes make money from their deposits – usury- and they love it. the only reason the banking system can exist is because people believe they are entitled to make money from money. the banks simply leverage the selfish greed of their depositors and promise them this interest. the banks and most orthodox economists encourage this by convincing people that money actually has value (or can be a store of value), in fact, it can even have babies. it reproduces itself in the hands of the brilliant bankers.
so, the problem is the greed of the depositors and their enthusiasm to accept the lie that money can and does reproduce itself without the exertion of their own labor. banking is just the natural consequence of this fallacy.
why some people have an expendable income at all is another huge problem. maybe a topic for another day…thanks for the conversation, paul and gareth
Well, yes, if people stopped supporting the debt paradigm then the thing would blow up.
Can you not recognise that the gold and silver stackers are doing just that, but instead of simply withdrawing pieces of paper to stuff under their mattress they’re converting it into the ‘timeless’ and ‘regionless’ money of gold and/or silver?
no, i do not recognize that garth. what i see are gold and silver bugs trying to game the system for their individual benefits. it is obvious to me that gold and silver bugs do not understand the very nature of money and that their incessant prejudice for a metallic currency/money serves the status quo much more than the suffering poor. their claims sound reasonable but in the end will prove to be quite hollow – maybe even ugly.
money is a contract of trust between two parties. the two parties are NOT the buyer and the seller. the two parties are the seller and the government that issues the money. the buyer receives the goods and is made whole. the seller receives ‘money’ -’symbols’ as an insurance policy from the government that guarantees that the holder of the money(the seller) will be made whole at a future date. the money is a claim against everyone in the society via their agent – the government or issuing authority. this is why money should only be issued debt free (in fiat form – all contracts are fiat) by a sovereign government -and one with an honest judicial system.
‘competing currencies’ will never add dignity to this arrangement. to advocate for competing currencies is to not understand the nature of money or its simple purpose.
all money is fiat money – and necessarily so because all money is simply an insurance policy between the seller and the government. money, like all contracts, are established with ‘words on paper’. what does gold or silver add to this reality? absolutely nothing.
if you want to live with other human beings under a government then this is your monetary reality. if you want to hide in the brushes and play monopoly with gold and silver then go right ahead. but do not expect everyone else to snuggle up to your fiction.
can we make the system more just. sure. let’s focus on usury.
I’m assuming you’re an MMT advocate?
We’re gonna have to agree to disagree, Jim.
Oh, and by-the-way, most monetary systems of the past have been based upon the weight and the purity of the metal being used which is transparent and unambiguous. For example our English sterling commenced life as a troy pound of sterling silver divided into 1/20th of a troy ounce…..pennies. I can provide numerous examples of weight and purity being the basis of the currency cupply but i’ll leave you to research this fact from history for yourself. This also leads into my next fact – we do not need a government to have a medium of exchange….i.e. money needn’t be a fiat one backed by a government.
Anyways, people don’t always agree on things so best to just leave this with us in disagreement.
G’luck, Jim.
Jim, you keep saying money when you should be saying currency. Paper is a currency. Not money. Only gold and silver are money. And why do you have this hatred for gold and silver so much? Just accept it. It is money. Period. It’s not my rules, it’s not my choice, it just is. No one can change that fact. The quicker you accept it, the better off you’re gonna be. And yes I do stack to pull the legs out from under this evil corrupt system. Do you think I like to see people in third world countries starving and struggling so lazy Americans can lay around and collect a check they think they deserve. There’s nothing I did to Iraqis that I can say I’m proud of. Nothing. When the dollar collapses, it will be a huge weight lifted off the shoulders of third world nations as all that debt is lifted and dealt with. So all I can say is Jim, you do whatever you want with your money. That is your choice sir. I have no problem with that. I will continue to do what I feel is right with mine and good luck to us all. Gareth, Jim, have a nice day.
paul – i dont think americans are any lazier than anyone else. they just have more opportunities to express it. when/if the dollar collapses those opportunities will diminish. but i cannot see how anyone else’s life will improve. the nature of people seems pretty constant over all times. good nite
gareth – what does it matter what money was in the past? whatever it was it has never worked! let’s not use the past as a model for designing an honest system for today. let’s be adults and have the courage to start from scratch.
MMT has some very excellent knowledge but they, like most philosophies, are afraid to look at usury squarely and recognize that it is at the very root of every problem in the economy. Usury should be outlawed, just like every other form of fraud. good nite to you
I agree about usury, I often write about the diabolical nature of it and the consequences of using it. In our current climate it’s reached governmental level in the form of a bond placing us all into the hands of the usury masters.
The only problem with what you’re saying, Jim, is that you are essentially advocating a ban on usury accompanied with a benevolent government that issues debt-free currency for the population to use. Unfortunately we all endure a malevolent government that is in cahoots with the very money changers/usury artists you wish to put out of business. This is further compounded by the fact the majority of people haven’t a clue to how the monetary system operated and their government’s involvement.
Essentially, what I am saying is that I cannot see simply trying to educate the people and campaigning to the government as working. There’s a group called Positive Money here in the UK which was ‘granted’ a hearing by the MPC and they basically got fobbed off as they were proposing debt-free currency to be pumped into the system via government spending thus removing the diabolical bond. There’s also a group called the BCG that are attempting to activate what they call the ‘sovereign pound’ which would be based upon the greenback from your neck of the woods.
Overall we need to be ‘pragmatic’ which effectively means crashing/bankrupting the governments and their partners in crime – the banking fraternity. This does mean attacking the commodities they’re highly leveraged upon and crashing their bonds.
It’s a shame it needs to ‘go down’ like this, but I’m afraid your strategy of going directly from a government in cahoots with the usury practitioners to a government that serves the people simply will not happen and it’s not something I would personally put too much energy into.
G’luck.
Ok, all good points. All very smart positions. So, if I may ask, what is worse? Usury, Inflation or Fractional Reserve Banking? I am attaching a video I posted ages ago, not that anyone needs a primer, but just for food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_egBPM9tnzo&feature=player_detailpage
gareth – as i mentioned earlier, the problem with ‘the system’ is ultimately about the desire/lust of people to seek a return on their money without the inconvenience of having to work for it.
this lust is not only what animates the banking system, it animates most everyone with expendable income. typically expendable income is spent/invested in ‘money making money’ schemes such as stocks, bonds, insurances, savings accts, jewelry, art, education, gold (!), silver(!) etc. etc.
all these ‘investments’ add nothing to our ability to care for each other in the present. all these ‘investments’ simply make a claim on the future. people ‘pretend’ that it is advantageous to differ spending ‘now’ for the allure that future rewards are sweeter. this is the true nature of usury.
why?
because the purpose of money is only realizes in the very act of spending it. the purpose of money is not realized when money is ‘invested/saved’. invested/saved money is always subject to manipulation – spent money is not. usury could not exist unless money was invested or saved.
the tragic propensity of human beings is to be utterly and willfully blind to the suffering of their neighbors. people turn a blind eye to the realities right in front of their noses and capriciously invest in their own future. this propensity is not only selfish on a personal moral level – it is also what degrades the entire social economy and all things in it. as preposterous as this will sound to most it is nevertheless true – the reason banks exist is to funnel expendable income away from the obvious needs of today to a selfish lust of future pleasures. usury is the instrumentality that ‘justifies’ this desire. and at the core of this diabolical justification is the altogether erroneous rationalization that ‘money is a store of value’. but honest money is not a store of value, nor can it ever be. money can only be a medium of exchange, and it can only be a medium of exchange in the very act of spending it – in the here and now.
this fundamental precept, that money ‘has no value’ but is only a medium of exchange’ is totally lost with the gold bugs. the gold bugs have inverted the very meaning and purpose of money by claiming that ‘gold always holds its value’ and is therefore ‘honest’ money. nothing could be further from the truth!
money has no value other than its utilitarian value as a medium of exchange. meditate on that…please! until and unless you understand the very meaning and purpose of money there is no possibility of establishing an honest financial/monetary system. none. you may pretend, you may conjecture, you may rationalize, you may insist, you may hope – but you never will do it.
to their credit, gold bugs are at least aware of the fact that the system is screwed up, but their medicine is at least as debilitating as the sickness itself – and in my opinion worse. it offers a false hope. it erects a stumbling block to the innocent who are trying, as best they can, to make some kind of sense out of the entire mess.
i would ask you gareth, and everyone else who visits the dont-tread- on- me site, to take a step back and examine critically your basic assumptions about the very nature and purpose of money before you encourage others to ‘stack (hoard?) silver. the freedom you’re looking for will be found when you have the humility to take that second look at your own claims.
It’s not that I disagree with your views totally, Jim, I just think your strategy at addressing the problem will not be solved through campaigning for a government to issue a pseudo-greenback. The governments in the modern world are in cahoots with the banksters. Some state they are one-in-the-same, but I regard them as seperate entities – partners in crime if you will.
Also, the masses will not realise their folly of usury, fractional reserve banking etc until they lose their wealth in a mighty default in the form of counter party risk. Which is coming and will hardly encourage the masses to trust a government guaranteed fiat currency anyway – which is yet another flaw in your strategy.
My main disagreement with you is your opposition to holding gold and silver. I own much currency from yesterday in the form of .500 silver coins. These still have value even though they are not fiat, i.e. not backed by a government. They can be used for direct trade or transfered into today’s currency. In other words they are retain their value even though their is no law stated that they should.
My main agreement is that gold in itself isn’t the answer as most people don’t hold nor own it.
I advocate decentralised currency in which the market decides the medium-of-exchange, not an individual, set of individuals, nor some corrupt centralised government.
Finally, you appear to perceive yourself as some ‘deep thinker’ of some description and that those that disagree with you need to ‘contemplate’. I must forewarn you that condescending an individual will not find you favour, and there are many people that may think differently to you, but that does not mean they think in a deficient manner.
I must also pick you up on one thing, ” money can only be a medium of exchange, and it can only be a medium of exchange in the very act of spending it – in the here and now.”
Like a squirrel storing for less abundant times, money is stored by humans for periods in which less ‘stuff’ is gathered, for example retirement. Gold and silver serve this function. So you are entirely wrong with your ‘live in the moment’ proposition to the concept of money.
rainmaker – to your inquiry…
usury is ultimately the very cause of inflation
usury is also the very ‘purpose’ that animates fractional reserve banking – in fact, any form of banking
so usury wins the distinction as the worst principle, hands down.
its curiously interesting that the movers and shakers, the investment class, the media shills, the art world, the evangelists, orthodox economists and politicians never bring up the subject. perhaps, its difficult for them to be introspective?
Ok, I guess can we define inflation? Technically, I have always thought inflation was an increase in the money supply and deflation was a decrease in the money supply. We have all been trained to extrapolate what the effects of the increases and decreases is/are and we call upward price volitility based on increased money supply inflation and via versa for deflation. Those can also be diluted because up and down volitility can also be caused by supply and demand of goods. (and the money supply as well, but I digress)
Usury, again IMHO, has always been the lending of money with an “interest” charge for its use. Usually with some sort of collateral to securitize the repayment. Lets not get into the economic arguements of Hayek and Keynes nor should we try to diseminate how Capital affects growth (I consider those topics sophisticated vood-doo somewhat)
Enter Frac Reserve Banking, again, IMHO, is a combination of both Usuary and Inflation (increase in the money supply)in which all moeny is created as interest based debt. And therefore, more evil than either one individually. Fractional Reserve Banking is both, bt mainly it is creation of money as debt with interest.
I ge the argument against usuary. I get the argument against increasing the money supply. If the money supply was fixed, then usury would not be a subiquitous as it is. But to create ALL MONEY as debt with interest, now thats quite a trick.
So I agree and disagree. I would submit that Central Banking (as we know it today anyway) is the culprit and usury and inflation are just the tools. Food for thought, and I welcome your thoughts.
You can’t usurp an educated population. Educated people understand usury and the means of it. So they hold gold and silver in their private possession to protect their wealth from usury. It’s only when they get complacent and let their let their guard down to psychopaths do they begin that long road to hell like we did in 1913. Gareth was right to say people forget over time and have to relearn this. Now’s the time to relearn quick so we can use our new found wealth to start over and help humanity recover from this nightmare. Because this debt and death paradigm is coming to an end. What is money today may not be money tomorrow. But in reality, gold and silver never really left as money. It was just waiting on the sidelines for us to fall so it could come in and help us back up.
Interesting video. I would say that the days of stock market investing are over. To corrupt and to many computers control it. Gold, silver, and real estate are the only investments I will be in.
Why not just track inflation yourself? If you compare gas, the Dow, ect to silver and gold you will see that the amount an ounce of silver buys is going up. For example, the Dow was at 1500 ounces of silver, now its around 445. If you owned dollar based stocks then you just lost around 66 percent, but if you owned silver then you see what happened. I agree 100% with Paul on this. There is no way in hell I would be saving paper dollars, silver and gold are safer and have a better ROI.
gareth – money can be whatever you want it to be.
why?
because money is an IDEA. it is not a THING.
the THING that you (and paul) claim money to be has never, ever, worked to the benefit of the laboring poor. is there anything more obvious that that?!
yet , you want to insist that money cannot be nothing else. why not? it’s as though you’re stuck in a gold plated sewer. sure, of course, you can trade your gold. and it always will have value to those who accept it. so what! does that somehow establish its credibility?
when everybody has the same amount of gold for the same amount of sweat equity then i’ll recognize gold as money. but that never will happens, right? why dont you ask yourself why?
I prefer to utilse the distinction between money and currency rather than mix them together. Anyhting can me used as currency, but I agree with the definition that money should/must have a store of value.
Currency is energy, and it being exchanged is energy flow – at least that’s one perspective. This would logically follow that ‘money’ in the form of precious metals is ‘stored’ energy – waiting to be used at a later date.
I’m all in favour of debt-free treasury notes being issued, but I can’t see that happening anytime soon, and as I indicated a few replies back I believe there is a cycle between paper currency and hard money……..with the latter becoming more prominent by the day.
Perhaps when the pendulum/cycle swings back there’ll be a debt-free fiat, but I really do not foresee humanity going from the current paradigm to such a form of currency – the evidence of the ‘return to gold’ is accumulating by the day.
PS. Yes, if people accept gold/silver for trade of course it’s provides credibility to the theory it can be used. WTF?
PPS I’ve a six-month old son, so this isn’t a game to me, nor am I seeking some Utopia on earth. Reality is I need to survive until he’s old enough to fend for himself. I intend to do this and I believe physical silver will provide a useful tool for this goal/
PPPS The labouring poor are alwsys screwed no matter what the currency/money.
gareth – i think you’re absolutely right. you’re silver stocks will no doubt benefit you and your son. unfortunately, it will also be to the harm of many, many others … but like you said ‘the laboring poor will always be screwed’. i might add- hungry people don’t aim that well…so you should be in great shape.
I have no stocks, just physical.
G’luck, Jim.
Jim, ur right, people can choose to use anything they want as their currency. My poiny is that I think ur just not getting is you will never get a better performing currency than gold or silver and history proves this. People will use whatever currency they see providing them the most goods and services for their money but until the free markets finally take back over and prove that after this dollar collapse, and it will, the bankers won’t allow a free market to exist while they still control it due to people’s trust in their paper still. But that trust has been fading and eventually be gone. They may try to introduce a new currency paper or digital but people are just not gonna trust it after seeing every paper currency on earth fail at the same time thru hyperinflation. They’re only gonna trust what they can see held its value and gained purchasing power and you’ve seen the past 12 years gold and silver do that and they will continue to do so. And to say that laboring people are always screwed is something I disagree with. Maybe the uneducated ones are sure and that’s most of the laboring folks but they’re screwed because they’re uneducated not because they are laborers. They’re screwed because they grow up not knowing what money really is and not having any real financial education. Jim, people will accept gold and silver because they will see it buying the most goods and services for the money than anything else. You can say whatever baloney you want to because you’re a gold hater but you can’t prove me wrong. People aren’t gonna be using paper notes to buy food when it takes a wheelbarrow full of it to buy a loaf of bread. Don’t u know your history? I think you’re in that category that’s gonna have to relearn this. To say that gold and silver has never benefitted the working poor is absolutely the most dumbest thing I’ve heard from you here. Poor people have used silver coins for thousands of years just fine. Poor people struggle and stay broke not because of the type of currency they use. They stay broke because they piss their money away on too many liabilities and never buy assets and then blame people that do make good decisions with their for them being poor. I see this evryday. Jim, out of everything you have said here you sound to me like a socialist or a communist. They never like gold because gold is the money of a capitalist, and capitalists want the best quality money we can use.
paul – thanks for you comments. wish i had time to respond, maybe later, but i’ve got to get to work now.
I can’t read the comment section?????????????